Deadhead Cannabis Show 0017: Vaping Crisis | Summer Concert Recap

The recent, unexplained rash of deaths linked to the use of vaporizers is creating concern within the cannabis industry.   Jim Marty and Larry Mishkin have an in-depth discussion about the likely causes.    They also reflect on it's impact on the industry and talk about possible solutions.    The show ends with a recap of the summer concerts and a preview of upcoming shows.

Produced by MJBulls Media | Cannabis Podcast Network

DC0017 D.mp3 transcript powered by Sonix—the best audio to text transcription service

DC0017 D.mp3 was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the latest audio-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors. Sonix is the best way to convert your audio to text in 2019.

Jim Marty:
Hello, everybody, and welcome again to The Dead at Cannabis Show. Jim, Marty here calling in from Beautiful and Summer like Longmont, Colorado.

Larry Mishkin:
Hey, Jim. Larry, Michigan here filling in today from Northbrook, Illinois, where it's overcast, hot and humid in September. So not quite the top of the seasonal weather conditions, but nobody's complaining as long as it's warm.

Jim Marty:
Well, September is a beautiful month in Colorado. It's usually in the upper 80s and lower 90s and very little precipitation. Blue sky. Most of the time. So anyway, yeah, we had some news that came across our computers and news feeds this week that I think it's important that we bring front and center. And that's the number of illnesses that are being prescribed to vaping. And Larry, I want to share some thoughts on that that we have. Larry, what do you what were you thinking here?

Larry Mishkin:
Well, you know, Jim, this is a. It's an interesting moment in the Cannabis industry, and it's kind of, in my mind, a very pivotal moment in the Cannabis industry for this reason. We all know that from the first time anybody ever mentioned the idea of medical dispensaries or adult use dispensaries or home grow or anything at all like that. The underlying, you know, by process, I think to the general public is this is just a bunch of stoners looking for a way to get stoned legally.

Larry Mishkin:
And what our industry has been doing, I think, very successfully for the last seven or eight years is putting out a very consistent and very positive message that says, you know, let's let's know the truth about cannabis. Let's understand it. And, you know, these are a lot of the issues that you and I have discussed that we will discuss and comparatively speaking with alcohol. And yes, we agree it's not for children and all sorts of things like this.

Larry Mishkin:
And the idea in my mind has always been that, you know, to destigmatize or normalize the idea of Cannabis so that it's as commonly accepted as there's alcohol. But all of a sudden, we have a health problem that appears to be a fairly serious health problem. Judging by some of the reports we've read and the national media is jumping all over itself to see who can take it in marijuana and THC the fastest. And I think that this is the kind of problem that they've all been anticipating and looking for and waiting for. And it's going to be incumbent on the legitimate cannabis industry to address this issue very strongly.

Jim Marty:
Yes.

Jim Marty:
Well, it's almost doesn't appear to be a marijuana issue. It's simply more of a make an issue because they can't pin down. It appears from the news I'm seeing, the articles I'm reading, they can't even pin it down. Whether for sure is from the VPN itself, never mind whether the person is vaping tobacco products or Cannabis products. So it seems to be more of a knee jerk reaction without a lot of evidence that it is truly these lung infections are caused by the VPN itself or other causes. So that's the what I've been reading. And yet even though the I read an article from the CDC, the Centers for Disease Control this morning, it said, yeah, we don't know really where it's coming from, but we think everybody should quit e-cigarettes, which seems to be really getting out ahead of it without really understanding what's going on.

Larry Mishkin:
Well, I think that's right. But we live in a knee jerk society, especially these days, where every single possible issue can be politicized. And Lord knows that both sides to do it. So try to do it. So now we have a situation where the Trump administration is going in and trying to get any type of flavored vape tobacco products made illegal or at least not be allowed to be sold anymore. You know, I'm not here to do to to promote the tobacco industry by any means. And I'm sure the tobacco industry will be fighting it. But to suggest all of a sudden that, you know, we'd have to take these kind of drastic steps, I do think is an overreaction. And to tell you the truth, we're only the Reno of tobacco. You know, I probably wouldn't care all that much because tobacco was not my thing. And, you know, quite frankly, I would be much happier in a society with Cannabis and no tobacco. But, you know, we have it out there, but they can fight their own battle. My concern is, like you say, Jim, when it gets carried over, instead of people saying maybe there's a problem with a particular device, that assumption is automatically made that it might somehow be THC related as well. And, you know, you and I were talking about this before we started hitting the show today. And, you know, whenever somebody comes out and they always, you know, talk about in these generalities about all the terrible, horrible, bad things that marijuana can do to you. You know, we've all seen reefer madness and we understand that that's a little bit of an exaggeration, but not much, because there's plenty of people today who will still help the link between schizophrenia and marijuana use and any one of a number of other types of mental conditions and no health conditions.

Larry Mishkin:
And the truth of the matter is, is that I think we all know that those just aren't true. And at least people who really take the time to look at it. And so to me, this is disappointing that somebody else would try to say this said. But here's why. Until this way, I recognize that there is a problem out there right now. When we ask people who are getting sick and the criminality factor in all of them seems to be the use of vaping equipment. And it does appear that many of them have been vaping THC products. But we also know what they've told us. But what has it received nearly as much attention is that most of all of the vaping products. The people who got sick have been using petroleum food products or not products, manufactured a state, license manufacturers or producers or cultivators or whoever is in charge of doing it in any particular state. Furthermore, we have reports already that are telling us that they've linked or at least they think they've suspect the problem to be linked to the fact that these counterfeit products use a Valium and E acetate safe to help fight the THC fluid and to make it more of a fluid so it burns better. They also these counterfeit machines burn it from much higher temperature. So I've seen the CDC and others hypothesizing that the high temperature burning of the vitamin C acetate is in fact what could be causing the problems. But it's important to note that it's a counterfeit plan and not a regular practice.

Jim Marty:
All those are very good comments and I certainly have opinions in these areas as well. I mean, my understanding is that e-cigarettes are 95 percent safer than tobacco. These cigarettes. And so one of the concerns is that by the CDC basically telling everyone to get off these cigarettes, they're going to push people back onto tobacco cigarettes, which we know kills 50 or 60 thousand people a year from complications of cigarette smoking. The other issue is, yes, standards labelling people knowing what they're getting. I've said this about the mostly about the CBD products that you got include CBD products and vaping, too. Not even marijuana, not even THC, but CBD vaping is very, very popular. And it just hit the market by storm. One of my associates said that on Long Island I think there's a chain of drug stores called Hudson Drugs. Had a full aisle right in action alley right by the cash registers of CBD products. And they were not cheap either. They were 30 to 40 dollars for CBD products. And there's a whole product line that's been rushed out to market with virtually no testing, no standards. The FTC is only just now beginning to ask the questions. Never mind. Find the answers. So as I've said on this show for many times, yes, this industry needs the research.

Jim Marty:
It needs the R and D. We need to understand these products be it's tobacco based, they pens or CBD these days. They pens THC. You know, the customer has so many choices right now. You can have a day 10 that gets you high. You can have a very pen that doesn't get you high. You can have a plan to try to help you quit cigarettes that has nicotine. So these are all choices. The consumer didn't have as little as two or three years ago. So it's definitely something that this bloke onto the scene. The big question I would have on these four hundred and fifty is the number I heard the other day of lung infections, a couple of which have been fatal as I wonder what the number of lung infections has been historically. I haven't seen that in any of the news articles. Are we talking from 300 to 400 something or going from zero last year to full on safety? That would make a big difference in that piece of knowledge being available to the public. But I know you have some entitled language and I would like to see some standards around people who call their marijuana products organic. But I'll pass the ball to you now, Larry.

Larry Mishkin:
Well, thank you, Jim. And you raise. I think the most important point of this entire issue and this has been a real need for a warrant came the case back into what I just said before. And it relates to we all look past the obvious answer to try to find a more complicated answer. And to me, when you said how many cases have we had before this, I have no idea what the number is. But what I can tell you is that until a few weeks ago, three or four weeks ago, when these cases really first started popping up on the national news media, I had never read of a case like this before. I'd never heard of it even. You know, anecdotally of somebody who became so ill, the report, some of these 17 year 18 year olds who all of a sudden have the lungs of a 70 year old man. I've never heard of anything like this ever happening before, just like I've never heard of anybody ever smoking marijuana and becoming schizophrenic. It makes me very, very dubious when I hear when I hear this to be able to draw that link. We all know people who smoked cigarettes and died of cancer. So maybe some people say the link exists. Maybe some people say it doesn't exist, but at least you can see where the link is. They keep statistics on those. And every year, a certain number of Americans. One cancer related to smoking cigarettes. But whereas the history of people who have ever gotten sick, smoking vapes and rates have been around for a long, long time now, probably 10 years or more. And the answer is we've never seen anything like it.

Larry Mishkin:
And so the logical response seems to me is that if this was THC based or even if this was nicotine based, we would have been seeing these types of cases popping up at the same rate for the last 10 years. It's not as though all of a sudden one day your society stopped being able to, you know, to absorb it and to take it in. So the evidence to me appears to be much more along the lines of a particular product line or a couple of product lines that have hit the market relatively recently, and that using those products has now resulted in this fight, if not, you know, total new creation of a health issue that we're really seeing. And so I I'm I'm a little frustrated when instead of looking at that issue or like you say, very logically. Let's just go back and see what the numbers were before. Everybody's jumping to a conclusion that THC is bad, that vaping is bad. We have to shut it down. We have to stop it. And I think that that, you know, potentially pose a problem for the cannabis industry, for the legal marijuana industry, because its success has been built on the fact that so many people are starting to accept medical cannabis and adult use cannabis. But the news media can very easily turn the tide on that, at least with respect to vaping and all the why don't have the numbers in front of me? I would have to say that vaping is one of the most profitable areas in the legal marijuana market today. Would you concur with that?

Jim Marty:
Yes, it can be profitable for sure. It's funny you should mention that there's a couple of my clients who sell flour say, hey, this is going to be good for the price of flour, which, by the way, has been ticking up nationally and also here in Colorado. So it could put more and more people back to salt and flour, which will be good for some of our own cultivation clients. Yeah, let's keep just talking about the standards. Does it? You know, obviously, we need that for this product. We need not not this product, but these products, whether it be CBD or THC that base marijuana products. The government does have a role to play here in making sure that things people put into their bodies is safe to use in our free market capitalist system, which I'm a big fan of. We have a buyer beware policy right now. I said you have drug stores with shells for the CBD products that have virtually no safety standards. And maybe this spike in lung infections is the first time we're seeing seeing that.

Larry Mishkin:
Well, I think that that could very well be true. And we're not going to have time today to really get into a standards conversation. But we've been talking about it for a while and this is going to really push us into it because we did. But to me, it's more than just standards, because, again, Jim, you touched on something there, which is, you know, the government's going to start doing testing and the government's going to try. There's a number of this industry. I don't want the government tried to figure out the answer. I want the industry to figure out the answer if we want to be taken seriously by the rest of society. You know that the legal cannabis industry, we need to be proactive. We need to be on the forefront of this stuff. You know, there's people in this industry that the manufacturers who produce legal products, you know, as far as I'm concerned, they need to be out in front. They need to be there explaining to the best they can what they know is going right away. Their products are safe. What they do, that's different. You know, we need a push back on the PR that spins the side of the story that we in the industry see it as. But even more than just trying to spin a story, we need to know the results. If if the if the industry goes out and does testing and lo and behold, they come to a conclusion that in certain circumstances, vaping THC can be dangerous.

Larry Mishkin:
We need to let people know that right now we cannot be the cigarette industry. That said, on dangerous information for years and years and years to the point where, you know, smoking cigarettes is is a taboo thing now. You know, we've worked too hard in the Cannabis industry to bring it to where it is. We need to stay on top of it.

Jim Marty:
Yes, I agree with. But you're saying to a certain extent. But one of my pet peeves with the industry, the marijuana industry, is they're self reporting, self self standards, setting particularly around the word organic. I have clients who just read what they have. They are organic and they will never do anything that is not organic. And this is all self certified. What's to say their product is organic versus the guy down the street? Is a. They're using to the nutrients they're using. There is no no stand or so. Well, I agree with you that the industry does have to be out front in self-regulating outside. Independent certification is also a piece of it, just like you wouldn't want the cigarette companies telling you, you know, whether cigarettes are safe or not. Yeah. I think the cigarette industry has a long history of hiding its health effects. And they've always been accused of trying to recruit young high schoolers or children who then become lifelong buyers of their product. So Joe Camel, etc. So, yes, we've got a lot of history we can fall back on what not to do based on the cigarette industry. And, you know, my understanding is that the shipment of cigarettes in the United States has gone way down in the last few years. And potentially it's because of the e-cigarettes. It seems like everywhere I go, people have their own regard for either tobacco or CHC products. And, you know, in the old days, people would pass around a joint. Today, everybody has their own data and they don't really even pass it around. It's more like their own personal device. So it's been a very interesting two, three years and I'm glad we had on this subject. I think we should talk a little bit about music before our time slot ends.

Larry Mishkin:
Well, if we don't, we're not living up to our name.

Jim Marty:
But yeah, as we both agree, it's been a great summer. We just wrapped up out here with a Dark Star Orchestra show. They reenacted 9 7 8 3. I did not go up to Red Rocks for that dark start to show, but our 21 year old son and his girlfriend, when he goes dead, dead, I think you were at this show and I looked at my records and yeah, I was definitely at that show. And it's amazing that a Grateful Dead tribute band can sell out Red Rocks at nine thousand five hundred people.

Larry Mishkin:
Well, I think that it's that it's absolutely incredible. And, you know, it was funny because when I was thinking of a topic today, you know, for me, the end of the summer was always traditionally the end of the touring season. So whoever it was that you were into, whoever it was you were going to see, you know, you get to that point in the summer where it kind of rolls into September. I remember once when I was in law school, the dad came through and played at the Starlight Theater in Kansas City. And a whole group of us drove over from Columbia, Missouri. It was great fight. But ultimately, you know, the summer season ends. And so we all start waiting for spring schedule or for if you can have a fall tour somewhere. But I guess it's you know, it's almost like, you know, Labor Day. It just kind of marks the end of the summer. And I kind of liked the fact that, you know, more or less that's sufficient. Texas is really kind of the end of that whole summer touring season, really kind of gives it a nice bookend there.

Jim Marty:
I think it does. And as I mentioned on the previous shows, we have beautiful weather, usually 90 degrees during the day, control of the T-shirt at night. Couple more comments on the Dark Star show reported from our son Jack is he said they really put the money into their sound system because that it could have sounded just like the Grateful Dead. It was so good. And he said the drum kits look amazingly similar to Bob and Mickey's from the Grateful Dead. So you here you have a tribute band and big enough to put the money into their equipment and sounds and instruments to really help them recreate the Grateful Dead show. Well, yes, there's been some false shows announced that and company is doing. I guess around November 1st and Halloween in New York. Phish is doing a few shows this fall as well. So our bands are still out there, still kicking it, still making 2019. It's a great year for live music.

Larry Mishkin:
Well, I think you're right. And it's always great to go catch those shows and know find them wherever you can. But just, you know, it dates back to, you know, shows inside and bring your coat and trying to have to find a place to put it during the show. And, you know, I see. I love the indoor shows as well. But there's just something about that summer rain. It always makes me think of the closing line of US blues rate numbers, guy and male life.

Larry Mishkin:
And like you hear that, you hear that phrase and it's like they should be playing that when the kids are going back to school, because, you know, it's very true. It's like have to get on with the rest of life.

Larry Mishkin:
And if we can happen to be in the same place at the right time with one of those bands, it's great. But what I liked about all of these 20 bands, whether it's Dark Star Orchestra or even any of the other more local that cover bands that exist in every town, is that those are the guys that really do fill in the gaps with the summer touring. And I think that's why they're so wildly successful because of the Grateful Dead and fresh and widespread. And that's the trucks toured all year, all the way through. You know, they couldn't do it. But if they did. People would keep going to see him. So if I can't see the dead, I'm going to go see Dark Star Orchestra. And quite frankly, they're, you know, they're really good. Jay Rad. That's a great band. And the fact that they're out there playing dates are really kind of makes them a little bit easier for everyone.

Jim Marty:
Yep. As you said, at the end of U.S. Blues Summertime gonna come and go. My, oh, my. Which is what's happening. Yes. We speak as we're down to the last few days of summer.

Larry Mishkin:
That is exactly right. Exactly right. And speaking of that. And we're not going to nearly have time to give this topic the attention that it deserves. We've we've we've touched on this briefly in the past, but I think we need to dive into it a little more deeply in the next couple of weeks. And that's the whole question of lyrics and lyrics. And, you know, in songs, I've got some friends who say it doesn't matter what the lyrics are. I'm just listening to the music. I have other people who say if there's not good lyrics, then the song is meaningless to me. Everybody has their own style and taste. But since we're really focusing quite a bit on the dad and we're focusing quite a bit on fish. One of the things that's fascinating to me. And you know, we can break this down and find a more song by song basis as we go forward. Is the difference in the lyrics right. And with the dead, whether it's John Perry BARLOW or Robert Hunter. You have songs that tell stories and sometimes their silly stories. Sometimes they're real stories. But you could read the song lyrics almost by themselves and pick something out of it. Whereas Phish has, you know what I like to call fun lyrics, which are lyrics that seem or just kind of thrown together to rhyme in the kind of fit in with the music that they're playing. But, you know, nobody's going to go read the lyrics if you enjoy myself and come away with much of anything. Whereas the musical experience of it is absolutely tremendous. So I don't know what we'll just have to get this conversation rolling for future shows. What are your thoughts on the importance of lyrics?

Jim Marty:
Well, I always enjoy the Grateful Dead versus Phish debate. I think there's a lot of merit on both sides. I think Trey is playing guitar like nobody else on the planet. I think he's playing far, far at a far higher level than than John Mayer and the single dad in company and fish in the last couple of months. But then you switch over the lyrics and. Yeah, you know, Hunter to me is another Shakespeare is his lyrics are like Shakespeare. You think that some of those fabulous lines from Uncle John's band or should it read? Like you said, Sugar Ray, you could read that as a poem. And I'm with you that I don't think his lyrics rise to the level of Shakespearean poetry the way Grateful Dead, Steve.

Larry Mishkin:
Well, good. But we're going to dive into this a little more deeply. You know, I've got some favorite dead lyrics to talk about. There's some wonderful fish lyrics out there. You know, even within the context of the way they do it, there are a lot of fun. So that's something that we've got for future shows. And just something else I want to throw out there now, Jim, for you and I did start thinking about it for our listeners as well. You know, we spent all of this time talking about the wonderful experiences we've had at TED shows and Phish shows and we have. But on the other hand, you know, like any, you know, people who really savor these moments, we have to be able to admit that there's good dead shows. And there was some that shows that just weren't so good. And then there was others that were so cosmic that, you know, they leave a lasting impression on your soul. And one of the things I'd like us to do over the next few weeks is, you know, come up with our lists of, let's say, our top five outside favorite Grateful Dead shows, have five favorite Phish shows. And we can, you know, each week we can pull one or two of them out and talk for a few minutes about it. And once again, I would encourage any of our listeners who have seen great shows or fish shows to send something in and tell us why you like him. And we'll be sure to share that with the listeners as well.

Jim Marty:
Yes. I'm looking forward to that conversation. You were saying not only could it be the dead have really off the charts, great nights and then mediocre nights, they could be back to back. I remember coming home from a fake adventure and just walking on air. It was so good I couldn't wait to get back there the next night. The next night it seemed like they played every slow song they knew. So yeah, in addition to have highs and lows, they could be within 24 hours of each other.

Larry Mishkin:
No doubt about it. And that's that's all things. Food for thought. Four more shows. I would like to let the listeners know that although I love taping the show, what we really love is when we have an opportunity to tape this show from the same location. And when that's the case, nine out of 10 times, I personally would prefer to be at the bar in Longmont. So as it has it, I am now going to be traveling out to the Colorado area for the next couple of weeks. And so I'm going to have the benefit of getting to tape our next few shows with Jim from the barn. Very excited about that, Jim. And I will just say that I hope you have a TV in there that works because I have to be able to watch the Michigan football game.

And I do. And I have a satellite dish. So, yeah, we're in good shape there. All right, everybody. Jim and Larry saying goodbye from the dead head Cannabis show over now.

Quickly and accurately convert audio to text with Sonix.

Sonix uses cutting-edge artificial intelligence to convert your mp3 files to text.

Thousands of researchers and podcasters use Sonix to automatically transcribe their audio files (*.mp3). Easily convert your mp3 file to text or docx to make your media content more accessible to listeners.

Sonix is the best online audio transcription software in 2019—it's fast, easy, and affordable.

If you are looking for a great way to convert your mp3 to text, try Sonix today.

Cannabis Podcast Network