Deadhead Cannabis Show 0007: Dead without Phil, does Otell do the job?

Recording from Cannabis CPA Jim Marty's barn during the pre-game party before the Dead and Company concerts at Folsom Field. Cannabis attorney Larry Mishkin calls in to continue their discussion on how each instrument has impacted the band. This week they compare Phil to Otell and shares stories about these legendary bass players. Special guest Duke Rumley joins to talk about Sober AF Entertainment the Not-For-Profit organization that provides sober areas at events. Inspired by a group of sober GrateFul Dead fans who toured with the Dead call the Wharf Rats, SAFE gives people struggling with addiction a sober space to enjoy events.

Produced By MJBulls Media

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Jim Marty:
So we're Jim Mardy here. Welcome to the dead hemp. Cannabis show I've got my partner in crime Larry Mishkin on the line. Larry say hi Jim how you doing.

Larry Mishkin:
Wish I was up there with you though that's all I can say.

Jim Marty:
Yeah we're really looking forward to these shows. The band has been playing so good. I just can't believe how good they sound. As you probably know John Mayer got to play Jerry's Wolf guitar. They went and got it out of pocket. The Met.

Larry Mishkin:
Maybe you already talked about that in the last a little bit but that's OK because it was very cool that they did it and that he got to do it. It would be wonderful if they'd let him take it on tour but they probably wanted to get too far away.

Jim Marty:
Right. And yeah since then I've listened to a couple of the songs that he played with the wolf guitar and it's just fabulous shows. Anyway we have a special guest today. I'm here with my good friend and associate Duke Brumley and Duke rumblings association is everybody.

Duke Rumley:
I have started a non-profit called Sober a f entertainment safe and.

Jim Marty:
Do work in the drug and alcohol rehab community for a number of years and I have had many good talks over the years about the pros and cons of sobriety and alcohol and drugs and marijuana. Today we want to talk about the social impacts of legal marijuana from the point of view of the drug and alcohol community. So Duke I'm going to throw it over to you and sort of give us a 50000 foot due and then Larry and I'll have some questions for you.

Duke Rumley:
Awesome. Thanks Jim. So Jim I appreciate your support. When I was working in the treatment world helping get some people in treatment and thanks for this opportunity to speak about our new nonprofit so safe create safe spaces and fun places we use our non-profit status to get discounted tickets. We set up a sober safe zone inside. Music festivals concerts and sporting events to create a secondary culture out there that is not out there right now ideally for anyone who wants to be in a community that is not with people who are drunk or high.

Jim Marty:
And so you'll be going to the shows today and tomorrow correct.

Duke Rumley:
So we've been up and running for 13 months. We've hosted 37 events. We've had over 15 hundred people join us and for an event like this for Dad and company we're throwing a sober tailgate two hours before the event and anyone is welcome to come. And then ideally they go into the concert and there's already a sober support group inside called wharf rats and the wharf rats have around since 1983 I believe. And it was really one of my early introductions of sobriety and Grateful Dead shows which really made sobriety cool. So this was back in 1989. So what we're doing today is just setting up yellow balloons and having a silver tailgate for folks and ideally people can come and kind of recharge their batteries and realize they're not the only ones who will be sober at Dena. company.

Jim Marty:
Well that's great. Yeah I'm very familiar with the word friends. I've seen their tents and booth set up at shows for many many years I've actually seen them have AA meetings that separate correct.

Duke Rumley:
They have kind of a check in meeting and it's ideal for anyone who really wants to have fun and see Dead and company but might feel a little triggered by being around a lot of people who are smoking weed or people who are drinking like fifty thousand patrons like it's going to be a pretty big numbers.

Larry Mishkin:
They do Mishkin first of all it's a it's a pleasure to meet you. Thank you so much for coming out today and having this part of the conversation because I think that it's a part that typically gets lost in all the excitement over everything else that's going on. And we forget that while some people are celebrating there's other people who you know it's a real issue for and you know the fact that it's so readily available probably doesn't make their life any easier. I'm glad you mentioned the word RATS AND I LOVE the idea that you've taken it outside of the stadium and introduced it you know to the whole community preshow and everything. You know it's funny Jim because this really the Segway so well into everything that we're you know that we're talking about here. Think about it. Rock and roll band who is you know the whole mystery and everything behind them all centered around marijuana city. And yet out of that community kind of organically grew this group that said you know we want to be a part of this too. We just don't want to be that part of it. And you know the fact that they were able to do that they get it all set up like that. And that it's become a standard part of any show I've ever been to. There's always that group and you can always find them. I think it's a wonderful thing and you know you're to be congratulated for bringing it to the next level.

Jim Marty:
So we're going to talk about cannabis of course and cannabis. As relates to people trying to get off of harder drugs to has a lot of experience with people trying to get off opioids. Before the show you mentioned a drug that you deal with that helped people get off the opiate.

Duke Rumley:
Right. So Jim was kind of asking about what I see is the culture shift in the treatment world over the last 10 or 20 years since Colorado's had legal recreational and legal medical marijuana. And really my comment was we've seen a bigger shift with my drug called Suboxone that is a opiate blocker that people take and it goes in to the brain and basically would just allow people not to get high on opiates. And that has been really the biggest shift over the last five years where insurance companies came in and made sure that if you were gonna get paid for residential treatment you had to use this drug. So that has been really the biggest shift that I've seen. I've also mentioned that we're definitely working with kids who have some type of psychosis issue from using the much higher THC either edibles or wax and having a hard time to be able to adjust to residential treatment until they kind of get this psychosis take Carol.

Jim Marty:
Right.

Jim Marty:
We were talking about that and the way I look at it is concentrates like oils and waxes various edibles. It's kind of like beer is to whisky and it's almost the same process because to make whiskey you start with a beer mash and is still it down and. or it concentrates. You start with a plant matter cannabis usually the trim or other byproducts not in this or the flower and those are just still down into your waxes and chirping. And of course they are much strong and you don't drink as much whiskey as you do beer but in theory in theory some people don't get this coffee every night. All right that's what we do spend working.

Larry Mishkin:
It's just fair to say right. It's not your father's marijuana. It's a whole new era and we are you know I think it's important part of the education for everyone as well to understand that that's not just talk. But where we get into these things like waxes and even some of these are you know safe cartridges which advertise themselves out of you know 95 percent or something like that.

Jim Marty:
It's kind of scary right. Right. Yeah. As someone who's tried tabs occasionally. It's much stronger than I than I would like myself. You prefer the old fashioned your your father's cannabis I guess. Right. Anyway what else we want to talk about of course is the big daddy of them all. Alcohol causes more problems and I think all of the oh the drugs put together and it goes a little bit about your path to sobriety some 30 years you said.

Duke Rumley:
Right. So I had a very intense experience with alcohol around age 17 16 years old in that rewired my brain no matter how much I thought I wasn't going to drink my mind would change its own mind at age 21. Parents took me to rehab and I've been fortunate to be sober ever since and there's a lot of reasons for that. There's this 12 step community there's parental support there. I was in college and had good structure but big part of it was kind of the social aspect. And I was able to go to great play that shows with high school buddies who still drank and still got high. But if I was able to kind of hang out with the war France who was able to make sobriety cool and that's what we're trying to do with this new movement I had a 20 year old and 17 year old and they were having bad experiences with their friends at Red Rocks and different concerts where they would go and then they'd be texting me that their ride was on ecstasy and I just thought it's kind of ridiculous that these young kids didn't have a secondary culture. So we went out there to create a secondary culture for anyone who was looking to have some fun and trying to prove they could have fun without having to be on ecstasy and the fear as a parent who is 51 years old with now a 21 year old an 18 year old isn't going to get that phone call that they did cocaine and there was fentanyl in it now they're dead. So we started this nonprofit and we're getting ready to take a national this fall.

Jim Marty:
So if I have a question for you How is the alcohol and drug rehab community handling people who are using marijuana to get off opioids. Well that's what I wanted to ask Jim. That's a good thing. You know they say there's legitimate reasons for the opioids maybe you just had a knee replacement or a hip replacement as friends as aging baby boomers all have friends in those categories and they find they can take less opioids if they're mixing combining it with smoking cannabis. Right. Any comment on that.

Jim Marty:
So we in Colorado have been kind of the forefront of a lot of things and we did have a sober living that was allowing people to smoke marijuana use marijuana and live in sober environments. And that didn't play out very well. I would say typically if there is a pain medication issue there is certain treatment centers Las Vegas Recovery Center and others that are little more pain management and they would use some non addictive medicines. And I'm not quite sure what they are but I haven't heard in any treatment centers that would allow cannabis to be the pain management while they're going through treatment. But we were kind of talking about this next generation coming up right now seems to be less about alcohol and more about marijuana because they like the way they feel the next day.

Larry Mishkin:
Well let me ask you this question because like Larry when I go to a lot of these conferences one of the most popular attractions are the athletes for care of the former football players and the former hockey players primarily you know who all became very opioid dependent during their playing days because that was all they could use to deal with the pain and you know post playing career as they found themselves you know lying around the house still on the opioids you know having several healthy relationships with their family and everything else and they all tell the same story about how they used marijuana to transfer themselves off of the opioids and you know back down to a much more manageable state where with some marijuana here and there they could address most of the issues that they had been addressing before know they really kind of looked at it as a savior that you know they got them off of these opioids in an Hoban law.. Now you know our governor last year put in place a program for anyone who is on an opioid prescription at all. Their doctor can write them into the medical cannabis program up to 90 days at a time recognizing the potential value that it has to help people get off of the opioids. I just wondered what your thoughts are on that.

Duke Rumley:
So that totally makes sense and that's why I think it's there. So to me that would not be my concern. You know my concern is more under age prevention and also prevention for the people let's say 10 percent of people who have a hard time regulating the amount of marijuana they're smoking. But to your point you know the CBD the THC I think as a replacement to opiates seems to be working.

Jim Marty:
Yeah unfortunately Jim here all of our evidence is really anecdotal. It's people we know who've been able to cut back on their opioids with marijuana. You think I'm sure we all agree on is there needs to be much more research and development in this area to see you know what are the medical aspects of cannabis and medical marijuana. You know the federal government has blocked that for so long. I hope that we get a little place now where the research can be done. The Israelis are very much better the United States. Larry I think you've actually been to Israel recently haven't you.

Larry Mishkin:
That's correct. I was there in April and had an opportunity to hear everything that they're talking about it. Rafael Matthew hemp who is a Holocaust survivor and move to Israel after the war and became one of the leading researchers in the world on this.

Larry Mishkin:
We go back to the early 1960s and he was isolating THC and CBD. Israeli government their medical community has 50 years of patient records for people who the government has given THC or CBD to to help them and for testing purposes with a variety of illnesses.

Larry Mishkin:
Unfortunately the United States we still hold out and say that there has to be testing you know through the protocols that the FDA sets up and that all the doctors are used to. But it could really kind of rattles me a little bit when people just well there's just no research out there so we don't know the answer. That's incorrect there's a lot of research out there. Just a question of whether people take the time to go and read it. But you're right Jim Israel has been a real leader in this industry for the last half century.

Jim Marty:
Well this has been a great conversation because the lawn for a long time. But let's shift gears because today is what I call a grateful day. Yeah baby. Yeah. Tonight we're all really fired up. I haven't seen Dad and company for a year since they were here a year ago but I've certainly listened to a lot on the Grateful Dead channel and they sound terrific.

Larry Mishkin:
And I saw they were great. So you're you're in for a treat.

Jim Marty:
As anybody listened to last program or two. We're going to focus in on one of the positions in the band and talk about it in general and stay we're going to talk about bass players. And I just love Phil less than a month ago at Red Rocks and at 79 years old he just filled Red Rocks with his base is fabulous. He played two full two 90 minute sets and he came out early and played with the warm up the end. So lots of great energy and then last Sunday I saw widespread panic and I'm happy to report that David schools is still thumping away. Big man that he is he he might seem like a big walrus over there just thumping away on the side. But he's also playing a customs 6 string modulus bass very similar to Phil's oatmeal. This year has a new bass and I don't really know much about. Yeah.

Larry Mishkin:
You know I saw it it looks almost like it came out of Prince's house. You know it's got one of those weird designs and shapes to it. Yeah we saw that in Chicago. Very cool you'll see it.

Jim Marty:
That's great. Yeah.

Larry Mishkin:
So here's my feeling on it. You know I say you know we all go to the shows really go. Wouldn't it be great if Kerry was there but of course he's dead so that's not really an option. I'll go to the shows and we want to thank you for not being there his life so it is an option. So then it brings it down to the typical point right. I happen to be a big fan of oatmeal. I thought it was great when he stepped into the Allman Brothers. Every time I've seen them he does not disappoint. He's got a wonderful voice great enthusiasm and energy and he you know he really has the songs down well. Having said all of that and I say it all with utmost respect for him and I think he might even agree with this. They can play the other one a hundred times but until you have souls booming bass that is his particular style his particular way or in Jack Jim you and I have talked about that when they come around no Jack Straw and all of a sudden still is there a certain of the stage know rocking the whole auditorium. You know that comes with the connections that we were talking about last week. Drummer s with one another. You know Phil is really part of that family and I think the hardest part of going to Dad and company is knowing that Phil is out there but he's not playing with them now. Having said all of that Phil Phil has a tendency to sing sometimes and unless it's one of his songs I'd rather he just stick to the beach hotel table. He'll have to put up with a song I can listen to him while he does. You know it brings tears to your eyes. Is that good.

Jim Marty:
Yeah. Well you're talking about what they call Phil bombs. He just comes right down the neck of this guitar above up up up. Boom then just fills the arena. Phil's Red Rocks with a giant bass note back in the game. Can't let it go through your body. Yeah you can feel you can feel it. You know and I'll bring Mike Gordon into this conversation to his obviously as a bass player for fish. He's one of the leading bass players in touring rock and roll today. And the bass players are not especially interested in sharing their trade secrets. Now there's a lot of intellectual property that goes into their bass guitar and their rig and all the technology and certainly in the case of everybody we're talking about money is not an issue. They can have any rig they want in the world and they're all all that interested in telling other people exactly how they have it set up.

Larry Mishkin:
I know for sure Mike Gordon has said that publicly and you know Mike he's a great example too because you know in many respects half the time I don't even think of him as a bass player. And when they do that you know Mike's Groove right and as they're coming out of I am oxygen or whatever the bridge song is and they're jumping into Wicker Park groove all the sudden Gordon jumps up to the front of the stage and he plays his bases delivers like a guitar. Right the way he has about that you know 25 or 30 second introduction and he's wailing on a bass guitar like I've never seen anybody that knows me.

Jim Marty:
It's just outstanding. And the four bass players were tired but they all do have a very unique sound whether it's how they play the bass or they're they're setup and their amps. They certainly makes bass and fish very very unique. You know we've talked about Phil with his Phil bombs and David schools when he is ever you know as he likes spreads his legs about shoulder width apart and leans back and look straight up but as the Red Rocks and Bob of boom comes out to his ear. So you're all very great bass players for great unique sounds. And so we'll look forward to seeing Mr. O'Toole Burbage today. What's the what's the song that he's been singing this tour with debt and Co. It's really good.

Larry Mishkin:
I think of the name that right now it just shows me so he didn't really do a lot of singing in Chicago. They kind of filtered away from him but that's what I love about him too. Like when they had him to come the train a couple of years ago which is one of my all time favorite Jerry songs and it just kind of came out of nowhere and there was a tail up there doing it and like he's really talented and you know you're right. We could talk to all these guys all day were in Philly probably has an edge just because he's the grandfather of the group it has been around forever. But for me the one thing that makes Phil really special to another isolated this on Mickey Hart last week as well is that you know Phil is responsible for you know one of the if some people would say the greatest song in the entire bad canon of music and I was at Hampton Beach Virginia in 1987 when they broke out 86 87 when he broke out Box of Rain for the first time in 15 years. And you know of all the shows that I've ever been out where they were they broke out songs that one may have been the most electric where people all thought he was stepping up to the mike to sing Thompson's Blues which he had been singing a lot on that tour. And all of a sudden they broke into box of rain and people were just sitting there singing along with tears in their eyes because you don't you don't know if you're ever going to see something like that again. And it was it was definitely one of the top three or four highlight my entire territory career love box rain and now that you mentioned it.

Jim Marty:
Maybe we'll get a box of rain tonight or tomorrow night. Some of the folks may not know that box of rain Phil wrote that about his father when his father was passing away and that's the last. I love that song such a long long time to be gone in a short time to be there right.

Larry Mishkin:
And whenever they play that is an encore. Right at the end of a show and you hear that. That's exactly what you're thinking because it's like four hours just flew by the week of an hour and now they're gone again. And it's true even when they're there and even when I stop to say they're here I brought home too much happiness plays right by. But you know what that's a good thing because it just leaves you wanting more.

Jim Marty:
Yeah it sure is and reminds us all that we're here for a very short time and enjoy every minute while you're here.

Larry Mishkin:
Hey man brother will next week. I think it's time to move on to rhythm guitar and our good friend Mr. Weir. And that should be a fun kind of reception too because I've been doing a lot of more research on him lately and talking to people and it's beginning to change my thoughts on him a little bit but we'll touch on that next week.

Jim Marty:
Well that sounds good. I'm looking forward to talking about Bob Weir because I've had a. long long relationship listening to Mr. Bob singing as you dig Steve Parish recently called him. He calls them the California songbird. So we'll talk about him next week.

Larry Mishkin:
That's a great name. Well great. Duke let me just say again it was a pleasure to meet you. Thank you so much for your time and for sharing all that information with us. It's been it's informative and I think it's also really helpful in terms of giving us ideas on how to move forward in this industry while being cognizant of you know people who are out there who may support what we're doing but not by participating themselves.

Duke Rumley:
Right. You feel free to check out the Web site it's soberAFE.com. And we're going to be in New York and Miami and all over this coming fall. So you can check out the various sites get more on that.

Jim Marty:
Excellent. All right everybody over now. Very good. We're off to Folsom Field to report back on the two dead shows next week. Every game is played right. Blues Yeah pollinate. All right. All right now. Thanks guys.

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