Deadhead Cannabis Show 0009: Jerry Garcia, his impact on the band and the culture

Cannabis CPA Jim Marty and Cannabis Attorney Larry Mishkin have enjoyed over 150 Grateful Dead concerts with Jerry Garcia. His muscial genuis is very hard to understand without experiencing it. They share some of their favorite stories about concerts where his magic was on display. They also talk about the FDA involvement with CBD and the potential for governmental disruption.

*Produced By MJBulls Media | Cannabis Podcast Network*

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Larry Mishkin:
Hello, everybody. This is Larry, Michigan from the Hoban law. Group, and we welcome you all to our Had Cannabis podcast once again joined today, as always, my good friend and world class Cannabis accountant Jim Marty.

Jim Marty:
Jim, how are you doin? Very good. It's a beautiful day here in Colorado. Ninety low 90s, blue sky, just a summer day here. So that's good to join you. Welcome, everybody, to the dad had Cannabis show.

Jim Marty:
Now we're having a great summer here between a lot of Cannabis coming online in various states. Great finish to the dead and company summer tour. Fish is cookin. I was just playing really, really well. We'll talk about that.

Larry Mishkin:
And sure, we've got a little, I think, on our list of Grateful Dead band members. We're finally up to Gerri. So we all have. I'm sure something good to say about that as well. To one of the issues, Jim, that's been coming across my desk a lot and that I've been looking at it really all kind of makes me laugh. But it gives me some concern at the same time as this. You know, we all know that the 2018 farm bill signed by President Trump in December declared that Hemp CBD are not controlled substances. That's wonderful news for everybody. The federal government says that they're no longer illegal on a federal level. And everybody's excited. And this is really supposed to open the floodgates subject to states kind of getting their acts together and figuring out how they're going to do it. But lo and behold, just a few days later, we were all kind of surprised that the head of the FDA stepped out and made an interesting pronouncement, which was. Well, now that Hemp and CBD have been declared legal, they're no longer law enforcement priorities. They now fall under regulatory oversight. And that's us. And we now have oversight over CBD. We hereby declare that we have not yet made a determination that CBD is a safe food additive for purposes of being added into food products. So any type of edible with CBD, they're saying, shouldn't be sold there. They're not saying it can't be sold. Right. They're saying it shouldn't be sold or they're not approving it because they've never made a determination as to whether CBD is safe. And they've never been able to do it up to this point because it's been illegal. So grateful for my clarity. I don't know if you're if you're seeing it out there, but in Illinois, people who sell CBD food products have been warned by the state that they need to start making lists of what they're selling in the state, reserves the right to pull it. And in other states, they have gone in and pulled out CBD food products. Have you guys seen that at all in Colorado?

Jim Marty:
No. Colorado has a great environment for growing Hemp and most of the Hemp that's grown is abstracted into oil. So we've had four or five years of experience basically since the 2014 farm bill. And so basically there's two places that Hemp and CBD are regulated in Colorado. One is as it's grown, it's under a Department of Agriculture. All you need is a five hundred dollar permit. Don't have the existence of regulatory process that high THC marijuana does. And then once the plant is harvested and the oil is extracted, it falls. There are Department of Health and in the case the Department of AG, and they just test for the point three percent THC. And for the Department of Health, it's treated like any other food additive is just tested for contaminants, molds and things like that. So now we're just clipping along in our clients. We have many, many CBD and Hemp clients around the country. They're just gone. Great guns. I mean, they're just extracting and selling everything they can. Seems like I can turn on a radio now without Anna Hemp commercial on what a wonderful product that is for sleeping and aches and pains. So the FDA certainly that's at the federal level is way behind. When I was in New Orleans last month, there was a side by side THC conference and Hemp conference at the New Orleans Convention Center put on by an MJ Biz Con people.

Jim Marty:
And they had a lot of sessions. And the FDA is only starting to formulate the question. They don't even have the and they don't have the answers yet as far as how they're going to regulate what they're going to regulate. One example I remember is when Hemp company was very proud. This is at the end of May. The FDA had their first listening session, how they were going to regulate the industry. And one of the participants was very proud to say we don't sell any CBD products to anybody under 18 years old. And the question from the FDA asked a very simple question, why? Why do you sell it to adults and not people under 18? What does make your decision and the person, did it really have a good answer? But that's how at the very beginning of the regulatory process, we asked for CBD products. Now, that said, there seems to be a huge demand. Personally, it doesn't do much for me to try and any CBD products. I have other people in my world that absolutely swear by it for their aches and pains and for sleeping. And they don't want to get high and they they love the CBD tinctures. So yeah, a lot going on. We're just starting to as I said, FC is starting to formulate the questions now. We'll have the answers probably in the next year or two.

Larry Mishkin:
Now, this is really interesting to me because basically, you know, what I hear the federal government saying is we don't know that this is safe. We can't do it. We haven't tested it yet. But in fact, they have the largest testing lab in the world right here in the United States. Right. Because people have been eating CBD edibles for an extended period of time. And the irony is that when Hemp was believed to be illegal under federal law and the FDA wouldn't touch it, nobody died. Nobody had any problems. There wasn't any any issues like that. So it's kind of almost ironic that here we are now, it's finally become legal and now the FDA is stepping in and, you know, taking a position that seems a little bit strange in the context of this is not an unknown to you. You know what you're dealing with. Let me ask you this, Jim.

Larry Mishkin:
I've heard talk that Colorado was at least planning. I don't know if they've successfully passed it yet or not, what their own statute declaring that for purposes of the state of Colorado, that CBD infused food products are considered safe. Are you aware of something like that?

Jim Marty:
Oh, yes. Yeah. Well, as I said, since 2008, we've had three or four years of Hemp and CBD products and the U.S. Department of Health. That's what they do is they declare things safe or not. So look at three or four years. Our Department of Health has been testing CBD products, see?

Larry Mishkin:
And so that's great. Now, in Illinois, I've been working here with people in the CBD industry and we're reaching out to Illinois legislators because we don't have anything similar in Illinois, where the state itself actually says, don't worry, we've determined that for purposes of sale in this state, it's safe. And so obviously that's causing a hinderance in the industry. So we're trying to take steps to at least solve it on the Illinois level. But I want to take this out to its logical conclusion and kind of follow the FDA style pattern here, because this is something that sometimes keeps me awake at night. What's going to happen 1, 2, 5 years from now, whenever it is when the federal government declares that marijuana is no longer a controlled substance? Are we going to wake up the next morning with the FDA saying, OK, now that marijuana is legal, it falls under our regulatory jurisdiction and we're making a determination that there has been no determination made, that marijuana is a safe food additive and therefore we cannot approve marijuana edible products? Right. And then that would, in essence, require each state to kind of go back again. I don't think people have thought about that. The only thing keeping the FDA from saying that about any of these substances until they're legal, they don't have jurisdiction to do it. And, you know, I'm just wondering and wondering what your thoughts are on whether that's something that, you know, manufacturers of THC edibles ought to be looking at down the road.

Jim Marty:
Certainly. Yes, certainly. We've heard rumblings in that area that if marijuana did become legal at the federal level, which is first government agency to knock on the door of a state licensed marijuana business, would it be alcohol and tobacco? Would it be the FDA? Would it be the IRS already had a lot of interaction with the IRS. But, you know, there's there's a lot of unknowns. I mean, a lot of people look like the industry the way it is right now. And that's why a lot of people support Cory Gardner and Elizabeth Warren's states rights bill, because it does keep marijuana illegal at the federal level, but allows a carve out for the states to regulate as they see fit. And that would prevent marijuana products from crossing state lines. Pretty much keep the industry the way it is now, except it would basically fix the banking problem and the deductibility of expenses outside of cost of goods. So now when I was in Washington, D.C. back in May, I was told that that states rights bill wasn't going to see the light of day. And so far that's been true. The good news is there was a hearing on the Safe Banking Act in the last week or two. So that one actually might go through because it's more of a public safety issue. I was just on the phone today with somebody from California and there is no banking in California to speak of. People are running around with backpacks full of cash, going to different convenience stores to buy ten thousand dollars worth of money orders to pay their bills. So the lack of access to banking is a public safety issue. And so if we look at some see something come out of Congress this session on the Safe Banking Act.

Jim Marty:
Let me ask you a question about that, because, you know, you're a numbers guy and you understand this stuff better than I do. The way I understand that that Safe Banking Act and even the States Act is that it's not changing the law nationwide. It's only changing the law in those states that have state approved medical and or adult use marijuana programs. So in those states rights under the States Act, it's not considered a schedule one. And then under the Safe Act, banks can step in and they can provide the service as well. So how does this work? Because a bank, let's say let's just throw out a bank chase, for instance, Chase Bank services in every state, in this country, in the state of Colorado, they have offices. And I can understand, they say, OK, well, we're going to let you bank in Colorado. But when you put your money into a Chase bank in Colorado, it's not actually going into a vault that's located in the basement of the bank in Colorado. Right. It's going into places wherever they hold their money so that the money is still going through states that aren't approved. It's still going through the federal system. And then if you cross the border to the next Chase Bank in a state that doesn't have a marijuana program, it I'm just wondering how something like that can work on a state by state basis and when it's part of a whole national chain, if you understand my question.

Jim Marty:
Yes, that is going to be a very good question. We kind of can see the format now with CBD when it's, you know, all of a sudden overnight basically made legal. Still a lot of questions and conundrums, but there's no slowing the industry down. They're just going to go right straight forward and do whatever they want, as they have done for decades. And the cannabis industry and the federal and state laws be damned. I guess that's what we're seeing now in CBD. We've had a CBD client in the southern part of Colorado. They've been shipping their products for three or four years to anywhere in the world that people wanted it. So it's definitely a case of the barn door is open and the federal government is not going to have very much trying to shut it. The best they can do is to try to to regulate it. And another interesting thing with this flood of CBD products is I haven't heard of anybody getting sick or go into an emergency room or having any issues taking a CBD product.

Larry Mishkin:
Well, see, and that's exactly right. And the idea is, why do you go to all the federal? You want, but all you have to do is check hospital records across the country and find out how many people in the last 10 years have reported to a hospital. And ultimately the issue has been the consumption of CBD. I can see where you might have a problem with CBD. If somebody takes a CBD product and, you know, maybe it doesn't measure outright and then they subsequently go in for a drug test and they fail the test because the level was too high. But that's a different issue. There is a debt that doesn't have to do with public safety. And those types of things that the FDA is talking about here. And we also know and I think you and I have talked about this in the past, that in Israel they've been doing patient studies on CBD for over 50 years. So it's kind of almost disingenuous for the FDA to take this position. And to some degree, I just see it as trying to preserve their jurisdiction in all of this and say, hey, it's not enough that for the last 50 years, people around the world have been taking CBD and there hasn't been any known problems with the FDA, haven't made that determination yet.

Larry Mishkin:
So we'll tell you when it's safe. And I think you're right, a lot of people are looking at them and shrugging their shoulders and saying, OK, well, you go about doing a hover line that's going to take. But we all know from personal experience and, you know, from having seen the market be so successful for so long that we know what the answer is going to be. You guys just go and do what you have to do to get there. So those are my thoughts, at least. So many other things to talk about today. You know, certainly here and I were happier in pop and all over the place and all of that. But while we still have a few minutes here, there's a couple of things that I really wanted to quickly pivot to. And we can always come back to these other topics in our next show. The things that we've been kind of doing is kind of going through the various positions of the Grateful Dead. And we finally made our way up to the top to Garcia. I want to talk about then. Dena.. I want to circle back around to the fish shows this last weekend in Alpine Valley, because not only were they pretty unique shows in their own right, but I think it makes an interesting counterpoint to what we all have to say about Garcia and, you know, just taking it from the top, while we can all sit here and say that every member of the Grateful Dead serves a purpose and every member of the Grateful Dead was kind of integral to the overall success of the band and the unique nature they had and the music they made.

Larry Mishkin:
And in all of this, and I respect anybody else's opinion in the world. But for me, it all began with Garcia, and I would have clearly drawn to the Grateful Dead by Garcia and his guitar playing and his style. And on any given night, I would have been just as happy to go see the Jerry Garcia band as I would be to go see the Grateful Dead. And it was his guitar solos and his musicianship and styles in which he played that really somehow struck a chord with me. And I assume quite a number of other Deadheads out there in such a way that we were compelled to follow him. We were compelled to see what he was going to do next. You know, his life became fascinating. And unfortunately, that may have put a little extra pressure on him that resulted in some of the demons he was facing.

Larry Mishkin:
But I think it can't really be overstated. You know, you talk about the Rolling Stones and Mick Jagger. That's great. And, you know, you, too, and Bono and all of that. But there's just something magical about Jerry Captain Trips and really just taking this band and taking it to levels that it may never have been able to go with his musicianship and his his background in music. You know, he was also professionally trained. His father was a band leader. And I think Jerry originally met Bobby because Bobby heard Jerry playing the banjo and wanted to come in and learn how to play. Or maybe it was a guitar. But it was just something special in such a way that John Mayer. I think that's a really, really great job. And I think a lot of other people do, too. But the magic of the shows was you knew Jerry was going to hit a certain chord. You knew he was going to take it in a certain way. And waiting for those special moments and living through them is what it to me is the primary difference between the Grateful Dead and anything else has come after.

Jim Marty:
Sure. You know, where do you start? We start at the beginning with Factor Jerry loading up a tape recorder in the back of a 1967 Corvair and traveling around the country recording bluegrass and mountain music and which became a pivotal part of the Grateful Dead style and also the repertoire of songs like Beowulf and Don't Ease Me In, which are old blues long record of the 1920s. And then the story I like to tell, you know, especially at my house where I have a lot of young people, college age. Some of the history is that, you know, one of the reasons the Beatles quit touring was the sound was terrible. They sounded terrible. And Paul. Remember Paul McCartney telling when they played one of their last shows at Shea Stadium? The music was broadcast to the. Baseball stadiums, P.A. system is good and it sounds very good. Jerry and the Grateful Dead were the first ones to be able to, especially in Jerry's case, have a single guitar note in an arena or a stadium or musical. Right. You know, sing like single notes that were crystal clear. And that was course funded by Stanley Owsley with his profits from his LSD sales. So as a cycle of psychedelics into the sound system, producing better and better sound, getting larger and larger audiences bring that all the way forward to John Mayer, who are just a couple of weeks ago at Folsom Stadium in Boulder, and he was telling that football stadium with single guitar notes.

Jim Marty:
He was also getting to wear what I would always call it when I was lucky enough to see my 45. The Grateful Dead shows Jerry's virtuoso guitar. When you'll really do a super rave up, if you will specifically see during a morning do, John Mayer was actually getting to that level, I thought at the Folsom shows they did a morning do that. He really brought down the house. So now we could talk all day, as we've mentioned before, and take the song now fear. Take out the word alpha or put in the word Garcia in that song or start to make some sense. A lot more dance. Yeah. I always enjoyed your radio. I remember my first Grateful Dead show. My girlfriend, now my wife of almost 40 years. Got a great first Grateful Dead tickets for Christmas of 78. And the show was in January of 79. And somehow we ended up. There was me and her and her brother Brian was still a great friend of mine. But my brother in law now death row. And I was like making eye contact with Jerry during Casey Jones. I was lucky enough to see one of the very last. That was one of the very last Keith and Donna shows in January of 79. And then five months later, the Grateful Dead played our football stadium at UMass Amherst. And that was one of the first Brett Midland shows. So those were my first two great rated shows.

Larry Mishkin:
Well, that's very cool. So that's funny you say that. My very first Grateful Dead show was at the Ventura County Fairgrounds, just north of Los Angeles in 1982. And we went to the show, my buddy and I, and we walked in and we got pretty close up to the stage and they came out and, you know, there was this legend standing up in front of me and they carried birth Bertha, which I didn't even know was Bertha at the time.

Larry Mishkin:
And they're playing away. And I'm thinking, well, this music sounds really good. And my buddy and all the guys around us are all laughing and they're cracking up. And I'm like, what's so funny? And I said, by the way, how come Jerry isn't singing?

Larry Mishkin:
He forgot the words like, Well, I forgot the words. I said, Who forgets the words to their own song? Jerry Garcia. But that's what made him so wonderful, was that he was human. He wasn't automatic. He wasn't just a machine that was programmed night after night. You could hear him play the same song three times on the same tour. And it would not necessarily sound the same every time. And you made a great point. Before, Jim, but I don't think people can truly appreciate enough. And that's the uniqueness and really the very exposure and influences the jury had with music. He did. He had blues background and jug guitar or jug band music and country music. And he played the banjo and he was able to take all of these different sounds and bring them in and incorporate them and make them part of this unique music machine that with all due respect to fish and all of the other jam bands who all do a marvellous, marvelous job, it's very hard to say that any of them, you know, even to this day, do it quite as well to make a slight little transition here over the fish. I've had conversations with with my friends who have kids or, you know, my kids even over a big, big fish that's on some of them who have seen fish, you know, 10, 15, 20 years. But they weren't ever old enough to have seen Garcia. So to them, and rightfully so. You know, dating company is a great experience. And I am glad they get to experience it and they get to go out and do it.

Larry Mishkin:
But when I talk to him sometimes and I say to them, look, John Mayer is great, but I have to tell you, John Mayer playing Althea as great as he does, it doesn't move me the same way that it would move me when I heard Jerry play it. And they said, but, you know, look, you have to make do with what you've got. Yeah. So finally I turned to them and I thought, this probably is the best way to say it. How would you feel for the next 10 years going to see fish with John Mayer playing lead guitar instead of Trey? Right. That's a very good. There's a great guitar related wife and deal. Now, having said that and made that transition and why, I think it's important, not just because this just played three amazing shows here this past weekend. But, you know, Trey is basically the same age now. The jury was when he died and, you know, Trey was able to face it, look his demons in the face and clean up his act. And as a result, here he is at 54 or 55, playing stronger than ever. Amazing shows that everybody's loving, you know, going deep into their back pages to pull out some amazing songs. And while I am thrilled to see him doing it, I have to confess there's a little part of it that makes me sad. The Jerry similarly wasn't able to face down those demons and how amazing it would have been for the last 20 years. We still had Jerry out there, you know, playing music and given us memories. Yeah.

Jim Marty:
Yeah. Well, call column silver Trey now. And that's a good thing for all of us. And well, and go to it. If this was another example of somebody who can fill an arena with a single guitar note. So it. Tell us a little more, Larry, about the Alpine Valley shows. They heard there were great, Jim.

Larry Mishkin:
They were. They were really, really, really great. You know, I'll I'll tell anybody who listens. I like fish and I enjoy their music a lot. I've really got to know a lot of it over the year. But I don't consider myself, you know, a true fish head in the way I am. A dad had. I still go to shows and there's still songs they play. And I'm not sure what they're playing or what's the particular significances for me. And it's almost kind of nice. You know, I just go wherever they play. They play great. And I have a great time listening to it in the Friday night show. You know, just one tremendous song after another. We were in the pavilion, an Alpine Valley. And again, if you've never had a chance to get out there, it's really a special, special place to your life. Music. It's a beautiful pavilion. There aren't any bad seats in it. And they filled the sound there. Well, but the Hill is really the one that goes up on the hill. Behind it is the real story in the number of people they draw there and all the fun and the activity and everything that's going on up there. And it's really fantastic. And they play a great show Friday night. We were all really, really happy.

Larry Mishkin:
I got to hear a really good squirming coil, which I was thrilled about and, you know, some other great tunes. And Saturday night, it was a good show. I think everybody would say it probably wasn't the best show of the tour. But even even a show that that's not the best show of the tour is a good show. Now we get to the Sunday night show. And I have to preface this by saying this is an important part of the story. I was not there on Sunday night. We had gone to Jay Read Thursday night, fish, fish. It was just too much. And I couldn't. I had to work the next day and enough was enough. So my kids while up there, friends were up there, everybody was up there. My wife and I stayed home and very soon learned that we were gonna regret it. As if you've seen the setlist from that Sunday night show. But some of the songs they pulled out of Dena. Mishkin for the first time in a few years, which I have to tell you as a somewhat less than I used to be observant Jew, to hear them play a song that is otherwise reserved for the holiest days of the year in the Jewish tradition is mind blowing. It would have been wonderful to have heard it live, but it's great.

Larry Mishkin:
And then then this is where my you know, my fish knowledge admittedly falters. They played a song called Olivia's Pool, which I'm not sure that I could identify for you. I just heard it. But, you know, significantly enough. It was the first time they had played it since 1997. So 600 and something shows, according to the Web page. And then they pulled out Nicholas and they played good times, bad times and just one amazing song after another. My son was texting me. I can't believe you're not here. But before the show, I said to him, my tradition, my history is if the dad or fish or any band like dad is playing in my hometown and for our purposes, Alpine Valley is our hometown. And if I have a ticket, which I had a ticket, and if I don't go, it's going to be the best show of the tour. And that plus the fact it was a Sunday night. Everybody says don't miss a Sunday night fish show. The big moment came at the end. I'll be really quick here with this because I could talk all day. My son knows a group of people and somebody who is in the group wasn't out the show on Friday and Saturday.

Larry Mishkin:
They were at a wedding in Milwaukee. And they got to actually go meet Trey Friday night after the show. They went to the hotel where the band was staying, and the story was that he told Trey the band played contact on Sunday night when he and his girlfriend, whether he would propose to his girlfriend. And so this story was already kind of filtering around through the social media and on Sunday night when my son was up there. In fact, it all went down. And Trey made the announcement from the stage and they played contact. And the couple was not very far away from where they were. And there was a lot going on. And everybody came running over to watch and to see what was happening. And to this day, I don't think anybody knows exactly what happened at that moment. But he looks like he gave us some kind of a box on the video that I saw. And they were hugging and kissing a dancing around and Trey was playing. Here comes the bride and me. That's pretty freaking amazing. You know, in Trey's announcements, Adam was about to change your life. And he played the song. And I'm like, who does that? Who does that thing? You have a bit of this show for that. That's amazing.

Jim Marty:
That's great. Well, we're certainly looking forward to our three shows on Labor Day weekend. I think I've only missed one or two shows in the 10 years they've been doing it. We take our RV down there on Friday morning, get set up for the weekend, and we don't move until Monday. So one of the nice things about Dex is that it has the camping there. So you take just a few steps after the show and you're back at your camper getting a cold beer and staying up and singing and playing instruments all night. As we come to the end of this, wonderful and I want to thank the people who have been writing reviews of this podcast. They like this podcast. Please write us a review. I think we will have instructions on how to do that here next time. But I believe it's an apple. Apple. You can review these podcasts. Please do. And then I'll make one last plug. Our son Jack, who's 21, is in a fish tribute band. And their name is the Kings of Leon. So if you have a chance to check out the kings of Leon, that got some things up on Facebook. They've got a regular Thursday night gig at B on Key at seventeen hundred Logan in Denver. And they're getting rave reviews as a first tribute band.

Jim Marty:
Awesome. And Jim, don't forget, this time next week, I'll be traveling out your way to see Tedeschi trucks at Red Rocks a week from Saturday night. So we may have to do our next show from the barn.

Larry Mishkin:
Yeah, that sounds good. Let's try to do a show from the blind when you're in town. Absolutely. I forget the show. I just want to see the barn.

Larry Mishkin:
All right. Sounds good, everybody. Over and out. Thanks, guys. Talk to you next time. Bye bye.

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